Yes. And I wanted to talk to you about that. Malcolm didn't realize it until I asked, but he was having a...uh, a trauma response to your conversation. It wouldn't hit most people, obviously. But most people don't have a serial killer for a dad, one who's constantly trying to force bonding moments.
It's just something you tripped over, but his fear, his 'running away'- that's where it came from.
I think it's kind of bullshit that he can't handle the same crap he's constantly forcing on other people, but--
[She huffs out a breath.]
Yeah, I get that. But honestly? I was thinking he'd take someone being forceful with him better because he's so forceful with other people. I was trying to speak his language, or whatever.
[ Will's eyes narrow and he frowns. His entire countenance seems to ice over. ]
You know there's a difference, right? Between being annoying or overly enthusiastic and stomping on people's trauma?
Because Malcolm is very good at reading when someone's in that sort of distress and addresses it appropriately. Like he did for Neal in that goddamned meeting about Lestat. And you and Eiffel thought he was wrong for trying to maintain boundaries for Neal.
What you did when Malcolm was in distress and trying to assert boundaries was walk all over them. Follow him, tell him he couldn't handle it. I do understand- you didn't see the signs that he was panicking. But don't tell me that you doing that and Malcolm annoying people with his profiling are the same thing. They're not.
[Shaw turns back around to face him fully, admitting:]
I did see the signs he was panicking. But as for the other stuff-- I can already tell you didn't get an objective retelling of what happened, Will. During my talk with Malcolm, or during the meeting.
[ That first sentence certainly doesn't do a lot to change Will's mind on this. And he will be coming back to that. But the rest? Ugh, he's trying to listen, so he swallows the bile rising in his throat and takes a deep breath. ]
No, I didn't. Because anyone I could talk to was too upset for me to get a real read on the situation. I've been piecing together the whole damn thing since it happened. So tell me- what did I miss?
I didn't follow him, for one thing. And I didn't... object to any boundaries he set for Neal, I told him I understood why Doug got angry with him.
[Shaw pauses for a long moment, her fingers restlessly stroking Jet's head as she studies Will's face.]
I didn't know why he was panicking. I figured he was intimidated by me, and scared that I was going to, I don't know, tell him that I hated him now and I was giving up on trying to talk with him. I was trying to show that I wasn't going to do that, even though, honestly? I kind of wanted to.
[Another, briefer pause.]
Like I said. He struck me as the kind of guy who'd appreciate stubborn persistence. I miscalculated and I messed up.
[ As Shaw continues on, Will's jaw finally starts to relax. And he finally lets out a sigh. ]
He usually does like persistence. But he does have a lot of unusual trauma, and you hit one of his triggers. When he was telling me about the conversation, he was using strong, coercive words to describe how it felt. And he was confused by the change from avoiding personal subjects to asking specifically about them. He also said he didn't think that you wanted it like that either, so he just felt lost. I think...you were both lost.
Okay. [ Another small sigh, or maybe just a deep breath. ] So the rest. Does that mean you didn't follow him as he went to the elevator, as he was trying to disengage?
[ He sits and Buster immediately jumps up into his lap. Will pets him, but his mind is clearly elsewhere. He's calming down now, his eyes blinking rapidly as he sort of 'resets' his emotional landscape. For the moment, any emotional affect has mostly disappeared, and he speaks in near monotone. ]
Second. I've tried not to get too into Neal's...situations, but since it was relevant to Malcolm banging down my door a couple of times, questioning his purpose here- I've heard some things. The boundaries were placed by Neal, Malcolm was merely respecting them. That he didn't want to be the focus of attention when he's having a hard time. That he didn't want to be fussed over. That's hard for Malcolm, as you might imagine, but he did it during that meeting.
Third. How did you tell Malcolm that you understood why Eiffel got angry with him? Because you were just extremely disrespectful about him to me, and I don't imagine you're any different talking directly to him. Add to that the fact that whatever you said could've been misinterpreted anyway, because you both do that.
I didn't bring it up with him or start berating him about it, Will.
[She says this over her shoulder, on her way to the kitchen area to get them something to drink. After a moment's indecision, she decides to just pour each of them a glass of water and a finger of whiskey, so that they'll have OptionsTM.]
He insisted on talking about it. Wasn't gonna take no for an answer. He seemed to take it as a given that I should have jumped in to take sides, and that I should have taken his side.
You wanna tell me what I said that was so disrespectful?
...I believe it was a variation on the old standard: 'He can dish it out but he can't take it'. You aren't respecting the life he's led or the trauma he's fought through. You aren't respecting the expertise he has on the subject of trauma, that he knows enough to know the difference between badgering and triggering panic responses. You aren't respecting that there is a difference, even when you noted that he was panicking.
[ He takes a steadying breath and stares down at Buster, who has since curled up on his lap. At least someone's relaxed. Will personally just feels exhausted. This has been sitting in him for a while. ]
I am tired of people thinking he's some...clown that deserves to get hit, both physically and emotionally. And I think it's worn him down, too. He wanted to know why he came out of that meeting as the bad guy, what he did wrong, and no one's been able to give him a satisfactory answer. Honestly, if people need a scapegoat, I'd really prefer they come to me instead.
I don't buy that he always recognizes when he's pushing too hard and backs off. Actually, I know for a fact that he doesn't. I buy that he doesn't do it on purpose, and that he isn't deliberately cruel - but even I've heard from people who've felt pushed to the brink by his needling, and I'm not someone people go around confiding in.
[She brings Will's glasses over first, setting them own on the table in front of him, pushed close enough to the middle that they're out of easy reach of Buster's nose.]
I don't think he deserves to be harmed. I do understand why Eiffel yelled at him, and I gotta be honest, I have a hard time seeing one adult yelling at another as harm, but-- even then, I'm not feeling some weird form of vindication over it or thinking 'Rah rah, Eiffel, Bright deserves what he gets'.
[She leans against the wall a few feet from the table, rather than heading immediately back over to the kitchenette.]
He kicked ass for most of that meeting, you know. He read Reid the riot act long before Eiffel read it to him, and he did a good job. If anyone thinks he's the actual bad guy coming out of that, it's probably Reid, because Bright called him out on his crap. He did a better job than I did.
[ Will's small frown makes it clear he doesn't agree on the 'pushing too hard' thing. He doesn't ask, though, because if Shaw was going to say who it was, she would've done so. And he doesn't want to get blocked on that again.
The rest? Will nods in agreement through her assessment. He even smiles slightly at her talk about Malcolm's achievements at the meeting. So his next question is not accusatory but curious: ]
[She notes that frown, though, and pushing off the wall, comes over to bump her hip lightly against Will's chair.]
And as far as the other stuff goes - you can't tell me how important it is not to push Malcolm's limits, but then dismiss other people's concerns about him pushing theirs. I'm-- trying, and I'm gonna try harder. But he needs to work on this, too.
[ Will finally reaches over, grabbing the whiskey and taking a healthy gulp of it. ]
I agree. He has been trying, and he's been hitting a wall. Kind of like you were trying to do with him. That's why I thought I could help between you two. I could catch the bad interpretations before they spiral into something bigger...at least until you both find solid footing.
[ He rubs at his face. ]
And then maybe I can talk to you about what I'm trying to do to help him, and it won't sound so much like I'm....isolating him, or attempting to set up Hannibal 2.0. Or whatever.
[ He looks up at Shaw, openly grateful before vocalizing it. ]
Thank you.
[ Will rubs his chin, thinking of how he wants to put this. ]
Malcolm has managed his conditions related to his trauma, but it's not being actively managed here. Part of that is an arrested emotional development, which I don't think his therapist at home was capable of addressing. Part of it is that he's autistic but hasn't had much help in that area. It's not an 'acceptable' condition for the upper class, probably...and he admittedly had larger issues to work on.
I'm working on getting him to go to therapy here- he respects Kiryu. And I think that brand of fighting it out would work well for him, if he lets himself try it.
You know, I've actually talked to him about that? Trying to get therapy and actual help. He was pretty dismissive of the idea. Is it going better with you?
It's slow, but he's thinking about it. I can't really blame him for being concerned. His therapist at home is a child psychologist and she's the one that got him talking again. He's refused every attempt at her referring him to someone more suited. But when your trust has been betrayed on the level that his father managed....of course you don't trust anyone in an authority position to have your best interest in mind.
Hell, I only folded on the therapy thing because these are not what I consider standard psychiatrists, and they don't force me to undergo standard techniques- techniques that don't work on me at all.
But right now he's not talking his feelings through with anyone other than me...and maybe Neal, I don't know. But I do know I'm not an objective observer, as much as I'd like to be.
no subject
Okay.
Does that go for Bright and how he keeps trying to get you to be a go-between us, too?
[She figures there's no way he hasn't brought that up with Will.]
no subject
Yes. And I wanted to talk to you about that. Malcolm didn't realize it until I asked, but he was having a...uh, a trauma response to your conversation. It wouldn't hit most people, obviously. But most people don't have a serial killer for a dad, one who's constantly trying to force bonding moments.
It's just something you tripped over, but his fear, his 'running away'- that's where it came from.
no subject
[She huffs out a breath.]
Yeah, I get that. But honestly? I was thinking he'd take someone being forceful with him better because he's so forceful with other people. I was trying to speak his language, or whatever.
no subject
You know there's a difference, right? Between being annoying or overly enthusiastic and stomping on people's trauma?
Because Malcolm is very good at reading when someone's in that sort of distress and addresses it appropriately. Like he did for Neal in that goddamned meeting about Lestat. And you and Eiffel thought he was wrong for trying to maintain boundaries for Neal.
What you did when Malcolm was in distress and trying to assert boundaries was walk all over them. Follow him, tell him he couldn't handle it. I do understand- you didn't see the signs that he was panicking. But don't tell me that you doing that and Malcolm annoying people with his profiling are the same thing. They're not.
no subject
I did see the signs he was panicking. But as for the other stuff-- I can already tell you didn't get an objective retelling of what happened, Will. During my talk with Malcolm, or during the meeting.
no subject
No, I didn't. Because anyone I could talk to was too upset for me to get a real read on the situation. I've been piecing together the whole damn thing since it happened. So tell me- what did I miss?
no subject
[Shaw pauses for a long moment, her fingers restlessly stroking Jet's head as she studies Will's face.]
I didn't know why he was panicking. I figured he was intimidated by me, and scared that I was going to, I don't know, tell him that I hated him now and I was giving up on trying to talk with him. I was trying to show that I wasn't going to do that, even though, honestly? I kind of wanted to.
[Another, briefer pause.]
Like I said. He struck me as the kind of guy who'd appreciate stubborn persistence. I miscalculated and I messed up.
no subject
He usually does like persistence. But he does have a lot of unusual trauma, and you hit one of his triggers. When he was telling me about the conversation, he was using strong, coercive words to describe how it felt. And he was confused by the change from avoiding personal subjects to asking specifically about them. He also said he didn't think that you wanted it like that either, so he just felt lost. I think...you were both lost.
Okay. [ Another small sigh, or maybe just a deep breath. ] So the rest. Does that mean you didn't follow him as he went to the elevator, as he was trying to disengage?
no subject
[She nods at the little table-and-chairs set by the window - a nicer version of the ones she'd had before.]
You wanna sit.
no subject
[ He sits and Buster immediately jumps up into his lap. Will pets him, but his mind is clearly elsewhere. He's calming down now, his eyes blinking rapidly as he sort of 'resets' his emotional landscape. For the moment, any emotional affect has mostly disappeared, and he speaks in near monotone. ]
Second. I've tried not to get too into Neal's...situations, but since it was relevant to Malcolm banging down my door a couple of times, questioning his purpose here- I've heard some things. The boundaries were placed by Neal, Malcolm was merely respecting them. That he didn't want to be the focus of attention when he's having a hard time. That he didn't want to be fussed over. That's hard for Malcolm, as you might imagine, but he did it during that meeting.
Third. How did you tell Malcolm that you understood why Eiffel got angry with him? Because you were just extremely disrespectful about him to me, and I don't imagine you're any different talking directly to him. Add to that the fact that whatever you said could've been misinterpreted anyway, because you both do that.
no subject
[She says this over her shoulder, on her way to the kitchen area to get them something to drink. After a moment's indecision, she decides to just pour each of them a glass of water and a finger of whiskey, so that they'll have OptionsTM.]
He insisted on talking about it. Wasn't gonna take no for an answer. He seemed to take it as a given that I should have jumped in to take sides, and that I should have taken his side.
You wanna tell me what I said that was so disrespectful?
no subject
[ He takes a steadying breath and stares down at Buster, who has since curled up on his lap. At least someone's relaxed. Will personally just feels exhausted. This has been sitting in him for a while. ]
I am tired of people thinking he's some...clown that deserves to get hit, both physically and emotionally. And I think it's worn him down, too. He wanted to know why he came out of that meeting as the bad guy, what he did wrong, and no one's been able to give him a satisfactory answer. Honestly, if people need a scapegoat, I'd really prefer they come to me instead.
no subject
[She brings Will's glasses over first, setting them own on the table in front of him, pushed close enough to the middle that they're out of easy reach of Buster's nose.]
I don't think he deserves to be harmed. I do understand why Eiffel yelled at him, and I gotta be honest, I have a hard time seeing one adult yelling at another as harm, but-- even then, I'm not feeling some weird form of vindication over it or thinking 'Rah rah, Eiffel, Bright deserves what he gets'.
[She leans against the wall a few feet from the table, rather than heading immediately back over to the kitchenette.]
He kicked ass for most of that meeting, you know. He read Reid the riot act long before Eiffel read it to him, and he did a good job. If anyone thinks he's the actual bad guy coming out of that, it's probably Reid, because Bright called him out on his crap. He did a better job than I did.
no subject
The rest? Will nods in agreement through her assessment. He even smiles slightly at her talk about Malcolm's achievements at the meeting. So his next question is not accusatory but curious: ]
Did you tell him that?
no subject
[She notes that frown, though, and pushing off the wall, comes over to bump her hip lightly against Will's chair.]
And as far as the other stuff goes - you can't tell me how important it is not to push Malcolm's limits, but then dismiss other people's concerns about him pushing theirs. I'm-- trying, and I'm gonna try harder. But he needs to work on this, too.
no subject
I agree. He has been trying, and he's been hitting a wall. Kind of like you were trying to do with him. That's why I thought I could help between you two. I could catch the bad interpretations before they spiral into something bigger...at least until you both find solid footing.
[ He rubs at his face. ]
And then maybe I can talk to you about what I'm trying to do to help him, and it won't sound so much like I'm....isolating him, or attempting to set up Hannibal 2.0. Or whatever.
no subject
[She does go to get her drinks now, carrying them back to the table, where she sits across from him.]
I do wanna hear about your plans.
no subject
Thank you.
[ Will rubs his chin, thinking of how he wants to put this. ]
Malcolm has managed his conditions related to his trauma, but it's not being actively managed here. Part of that is an arrested emotional development, which I don't think his therapist at home was capable of addressing. Part of it is that he's autistic but hasn't had much help in that area. It's not an 'acceptable' condition for the upper class, probably...and he admittedly had larger issues to work on.
I'm working on getting him to go to therapy here- he respects Kiryu. And I think that brand of fighting it out would work well for him, if he lets himself try it.
no subject
no subject
Hell, I only folded on the therapy thing because these are not what I consider standard psychiatrists, and they don't force me to undergo standard techniques- techniques that don't work on me at all.
But right now he's not talking his feelings through with anyone other than me...and maybe Neal, I don't know. But I do know I'm not an objective observer, as much as I'd like to be.
no subject
[She slouches a little in her chair, stretching her legs out.]
It makes me worry less to hear you admit that you're not objective. So, thanks.
no subject
Objectivity has never been a strength of mine. Took me long enough to even realize what my own opinion was on some things.
Besides, I don't think anyone's objective when it comes to someone they care about. Still- there are far better examples than me.